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Gira smoke alarm dual/vds

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  • Gira smoke alarm dual/vds

    I saw some pictures of the Gira smoke alarm dual/vds and I like the way this smoke alarm looks.

    I was wondering if it can be integrated with Loxone and what is needed? I see Gira sell a relay module, a knx module, a radio module, ...

    What parts are needed to have multiple smoke alarms hooked up to Loxone (keeping cost in mind)?

    Are there advantages/disadvantages over using the Loxone smoke alarm?


  • #2
    I guess you have to wire from one smoke alarm device to another. All you need is one relay module. If any device will detect smoke and there is an alarm, all devices will sound an alarm and the relay module can be wired to your loxone. There is another relay on the relay module for error. As I understand the error will only work for the one divice the relay modue is attached to. So loxone can inform you only about alarm of any device and error of the one with the module. Of course you can use a relay card on every device, too. But that's far more expensive.

    I hope this is helpful to you.
    Zuletzt geändert von kriskind; 07.Dez.2015, 21:46.

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    • #3
      If it is not possible to connect every module per wire you can also use the radio module for all smoke alarms and use one relay module for the connection with the Loxone there you will need one digital input. For the error function you will need a further digital in. If you use relay modules for every module you will need a digital in for every one which will be very expensive but you will know which one has the alarm.
      I am planning to use one line in the second floor where all our sleeping rooms are and a second line on the first floor with kitchen, living room...

      Maybe the KNX module connects it all: Only one wire, knowing where the fire is going on... but I am not sure if this is correct. I think a KNX installation is only worth it if you already have a KNX installation with software in your house.

      Differences Lox+Gira
      - If I understood it correctly you will need a Air Base extension for the Lox smoke alarm air. Which would make it more expensive if not needed yet.
      - The Gira is able to detect smoke and temperatur, so you can also use it in the kitchen
      - Don't know how the lox one works, but the Gira is usually not perfect for bathrooms because it might detect water steam as smoke
      - If you ''work on'' (you can also say manipulate) the Gira you can use it as an alarm module, too. So it will give an alarm signal when a window is broken for example.
      - Gira dual looks better and is cheaper ;-)

      There is also a German thread about this topic with way more input. Maybe you can translate it with google translator to get more details. https://www.loxforum.com/forum/verka...elder-dual-vds
      Steuerung: hm, Loxone, Sensorik 1-wire, RS485 Ext.+Eltako Multisensor, DMX Ext.
      Haustechnik: Stiebel Eltron S-W-WP WPF04 cool, Puffer 200, WW Speicher 300, Erdabsorber, Lüftung Paul Novus 300n Enthalpie, Grünbeck SoftliQ, 7+7 Heizkreise
      Solar: 9,945 kWp Heckert NeMo 60 P, WR Fronius Symo 10.0-3-M mit SmartMeter
      http://hillboo.blogspot.de/

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      • #4
        As per my experience you have to wire from one smoke alarm device to another. All you need is one relay module.
        If any device will detect smoke and there is an alarm, all devices will sound an alarm and the relay module can be wired to your loxone. There is another relay on the relay module for error.
        As I understand the error will only work for the one device the relay modue is attached to. So loxone can inform you only about alarm of any device and error of the one with the module.

        electronic pcb assembly
        Zuletzt geändert von NanFein; 19.Feb.2016, 19:08.

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        • #5
          Hello,

          I have these smoke detectors installed and plugged a relay module in each one. I'm not sure if you could do it with only 1 module, didn't try that. I wanted to be able to see which one was active anyway (eg when not home). For the error output, I wired the detectors in series, so I just need 1 extra digital in. You could also do the same for the smoke output if you want to save digital inputs.

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          • #6
            Is there any way to use the alarm from these somke detectors for a burglar alarm meaning the Loxone MS can trigger an alarm if needed?

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            • #7
              Yes, you just have to connect the two pins on the 3-pin terminal block together e.g. by using a Loxone relais output. The same pins are used to connect one detector with the next one (daisy chain) to forward an alarm. It is not officially supported and described, but it works. I guess they do not want that you temper around with your smoke detectors. However it's just that simple and it does not harm any function in the smoke detector.
              Miniserver v10.0.9.24, 2x Ext., 2x Relay Ext., 2x Dimmer Ext., DMX Ext., 1-Wire Ext., Gira KNX Tastsensor 3 Komfort, Gira KNX Präsenzmelder, Fenster- und Türkontakte, Loxone Regen- und Windsensor, Gira Dual Q Rauchmelder vernetzt mit 1x Relais-Modul
              Loxberry: SmartMeter, MS Backup, CamConnect, Weather4Lox
              Lüftung: Helios KWL EC 370W ET mit Modbus TCP - via Pico-C
              Heizung: Stiebel Eltron WPF 5 cool (Sole-Wasser WP) mit ISG, FB-Heizung mit 18 Kreisen, Erdsonde - via modifiziertem ISG

              Kommentar


              • #8
                Cool. Thanks
                So, there is no advantage to use the KNX module? The relay works fine?

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                • #9
                  The KNX is a cheaper way instead of using an input and output of the Loxone. Also the time can be limited by the knx module.
                  There are also more functions like different tones.

                  Gesendet von meinem Nexus 5X mit Tapatalk


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                  • #10
                    I don't believe that the KNX module is cheaper compared to just a single output port on a Loxone extension. Well, if you was running out of ports and have to buy an additional extension, maybe.

                    However Nobby75 is right, that the KNX module has more functions like different tones (who need that ?) and is the official method to send out an alarm on the some detectors. If you have never used any KNX component before, it's quite complicated to get startet with KNX and the ETS software to configure it.
                    Miniserver v10.0.9.24, 2x Ext., 2x Relay Ext., 2x Dimmer Ext., DMX Ext., 1-Wire Ext., Gira KNX Tastsensor 3 Komfort, Gira KNX Präsenzmelder, Fenster- und Türkontakte, Loxone Regen- und Windsensor, Gira Dual Q Rauchmelder vernetzt mit 1x Relais-Modul
                    Loxberry: SmartMeter, MS Backup, CamConnect, Weather4Lox
                    Lüftung: Helios KWL EC 370W ET mit Modbus TCP - via Pico-C
                    Heizung: Stiebel Eltron WPF 5 cool (Sole-Wasser WP) mit ISG, FB-Heizung mit 18 Kreisen, Erdsonde - via modifiziertem ISG

                    Kommentar


                    • #11
                      Thanks guys...
                      I actually bought the knx module and then sent it back as it was too complex to setup in the time available at that time.... I might try it again in some weeks.

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                      • #12
                        The relay module is only required to send out a smoke alarm TO Loxone, e.g. to send an email or to open blinds. To use the smoke detectors as a cheap alarm system, you just have to connect the two wires together. You can try this with a simple cable. Just shortcut the two pins in the 3-pin terminal block that is available on all gira smoke detectors that allow to daisy chain all smoke detectors together.
                        Miniserver v10.0.9.24, 2x Ext., 2x Relay Ext., 2x Dimmer Ext., DMX Ext., 1-Wire Ext., Gira KNX Tastsensor 3 Komfort, Gira KNX Präsenzmelder, Fenster- und Türkontakte, Loxone Regen- und Windsensor, Gira Dual Q Rauchmelder vernetzt mit 1x Relais-Modul
                        Loxberry: SmartMeter, MS Backup, CamConnect, Weather4Lox
                        Lüftung: Helios KWL EC 370W ET mit Modbus TCP - via Pico-C
                        Heizung: Stiebel Eltron WPF 5 cool (Sole-Wasser WP) mit ISG, FB-Heizung mit 18 Kreisen, Erdsonde - via modifiziertem ISG

                        Kommentar


                        • #13
                          HI I´ve gotten a few Gira Smoke detectors.. At the time of purchase KNX was too expensive so I used the the Standard Relay module.

                          https://www.gira.de/gebaeudetechnik/...ais-modul.html

                          Hear you have 2 possibilities:
                          1. Cheapest - use only 1 Relay - Requires that all smoke connectors are in one line. draw Back you don´t know who has started an alarm in case of fire.
                          2. One Relay per Smoke detector an each connection to the e-cabinet. This tells you the current Battery & Smoke detector status, as well the location source in case of fire. If you connect wires right you can use it as well as an extra alarm siren.

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                          • #14
                            Here you have 2 possibilities:
                            Beside of option 1. and 2. you may also combine a couple of smoke detectors, e.g. one floor, one wing etc. and install one relay module per group of smoke detectors. Of course, you don't know exactly which smoke detector has started a fire or fault alarm, but you know the area.

                            tells you the current Battery & Smoke detector status
                            The relay module does not show a detailed status as the KNX module is able to do. The fault relay forwards the messages "Fault/soiling" and "Weak battery", but with a single relay only. Most likely the battery is low, but the detector could be dirty or there is another hardware problem that has triggered the fault relay.

                            Personally I believe that option 2 is far to expensive and you don't need to know exactly which smoke detector has stated the alarm. In a large building the option "3." show above might be good enough. In case of a fire, you may tell the fireman where the fire has started, e.g. west wing or 3rd floor and for a fault alarm you don't have to check ALL of your smoke detectors.
                            Miniserver v10.0.9.24, 2x Ext., 2x Relay Ext., 2x Dimmer Ext., DMX Ext., 1-Wire Ext., Gira KNX Tastsensor 3 Komfort, Gira KNX Präsenzmelder, Fenster- und Türkontakte, Loxone Regen- und Windsensor, Gira Dual Q Rauchmelder vernetzt mit 1x Relais-Modul
                            Loxberry: SmartMeter, MS Backup, CamConnect, Weather4Lox
                            Lüftung: Helios KWL EC 370W ET mit Modbus TCP - via Pico-C
                            Heizung: Stiebel Eltron WPF 5 cool (Sole-Wasser WP) mit ISG, FB-Heizung mit 18 Kreisen, Erdsonde - via modifiziertem ISG

                            Kommentar

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