AC Electric Window Chain Winders

[Tico]

Hello. I have multiple 240V AC window chain winders I wish to install. A simple solution is to use two Loxone relays for every winder (1 for open, 1 for close). But I want to minimise the number of relays in use on the Relay Extension to (preferably) 1 relay per winder.

Each chain winder has a cable with 4 wires -

1. Neutral
2. Close
3. Open
4. Earth

Internally, each winder has a complex circuit board with transformer and sensing for end positions and throw.

I have made the attached circuit and thought it would work in theory. The basic premise is that the direction is set by an external double throw relay, and the winder to run is switched with the neutral through a Loxone single throw relay. The anticipated limitation with this is that only one direction (open or close) can be actioned at any given time across all the winders. This is acceptable.

In practice, it doesn't work when more than 1 chain winder is installed.

In the attached circuit, both winders work successfully when connected individually. If they are both wired up, neither works. I think I have established the cause as some sort of 'back EMF' that causes protection circuits to shut-down the motors.

ie. When the Open Bus is energised, there's current flow through the connected Close Bus to the other motor. The internal protection circuits are (presumed) to protect for the possibility of voltage at both Open and Close.

Has anyone used these types of AC winders with less than 2 Loxone relays per device?

[Christian Fenzl]

I don’t know what is shutting down the motors, but - at least in Austrian ÖVE / German VDE - it is not allowed to switch the Neutral without switching the Phase.

[Tico]

I still couldn't succeed with the wiring as planned. I've reverted to switching actives with two relays per winder.

The winders have minimal documentation, however the 'experiment' has established that the winders provide electrical protection in case of a mis-formed logic output. ie. simultaneous activation of Open and Close relays.

[Christian Fenzl]

To save expensive relay outputs, you could switch - depending to your equipment - to DMX-controlled relay outputs, or using analoque outputs with 5A relais, or Shelly's via wifi. Also the normal relays from Miniserver and normal Extensions, specified for only 5A, will work with your winders.

[Jan W.]

I don't believe that there is any way to wire the motors with only 1 relay per chain winder. The wiring for the motor looks like the usual way to wire motors with one phase for each direction, a common N and earth for protection. 28W per chain winder is not that high (28W/230V=0,12A), so a relay with less than 5A will work. However keep in mind that the specification of the relay might be for a resistive load (AC1), e.g. heater and not for inductive load (AC3), e.g. motor and the load for the second type is typically less.

As Christian said, there are other relays beside the Loxone Extension or Relay Extension that are much cheaper per channel and can be integrated into a Loxone system.

[Tico]

Thanks for the suggestions. I've got 10 window winders so the Loxone alternatives are looking very attractive.