drexel und weiss Einbindung

[Hüslebauer0815]

I agree if you have solar panels because then you get very high water temp.
I have a PV on the top. In the morning wenn the PV power reaches a defined level the heating of the water starts with the pump.
I do no heating with the electrical heater, because the pump uses the electrical power much more efficent.

If you want to use the badheizfunktion you just need to ensure that all other heating circles are closed (Via Loxone Stellantrieb for example).

But anyway, if you use the badheizfunktion and your use-water temperatur gets to low, the pump has to go on higher load (but shorter running time) to make again 55°C hot water, than it would need to just deliver warm water for the normal heating process.

An other example: Sunny but cold day. Only bath needs heating because it has a higher required room temperature. You use bad heating function. At the evening the use-water reaches the reheating temperatur, but the sun is going set, so you have to buy the energy. If you are bad luck your wife takes a bath, the kid take a shower ... then the pump runes in the night to even reach the min level of use water temperature.

One advantage of this could be, that you can heat very litte baths or guest toilete rooms, where the pump would deliver too much heating energy.

[Pippo74]

I agree, BadHeizung & Solar Panels are most likely the best situation, anyway:

1) "I do no heating with the electrical heater, because the pump uses the electrical power much more efficent" You are totally right, but in any case if you're going to still have PV in eccess (12am, you're out of home) it's more efficient to store the energy in the house, so in the puffer.

2) "But anyway, if you use the badheizfunktion and your use-water temperatur gets to low, the pump has to go on higher load (but shorter running time) to make again 55°C hot water, than it would need to just deliver warm water for the normal heating process."
This is why D&W normally defines the BadHeizung for the default time of 60minute, 2 times a day.
That's why I've installed a 400l boiler, just because I was afraid about the warm water & WAF... :-)

3) "Sunny but cold day." Normally bad Heizung function is used in early morning and before night, so out of PV production peak. Again, it's important to have the puffer "fully loaded" so that you've enought stored energy. Who cares if the puffer will reach 60...65°C? (see 1) )

[Stieger]

Ah okay, that sounds quite interesting but needs a bit of a logic in Loxone, as I have no extra pipes.
I was already wondering if there's another way to heat the bathroom, as the Klima Controller is only start heating when there are enough requests.

Have you already programmed it with the consideration of a timer and closing other actuators?
And is there anywhere a description of the other function "Heizung+"? I guess this is using the warmwater tank too.

[Pippo74]

I still have to think about how to implement that (September here in Turin is still delivering hot nice days. J)...

hmmm, an idea could be to use the time in between Cooling-Mode and Heating-Mode, which are going to define the behaviour of the HeatPump.
In this intermediate "dead time", would say Sept.15 to Dec.1st, you are not cooling, not heating, HeatPump is surely OFF.
You may add an AND block before the connection with ea. Output command to the Valve (1st input is the IRC's HC1 or HC output, 2nd input is the BadHeizung Mode Active).
This goes in light contrast with Loxone directives (pls. don't put intermediate functions a/o elements betw. the IRC and the Output command) but you can be sure to have all the Valves OFF when BadHeizung is ACTIVE.
In this case you use BadHeizung Active also to Open the Bathrooms valves to 100%, to ramp-up the heating in a max. time of 60 minutes... first shot in the morning, second in the evening.

What do you guys think about ?

--------------

Regarding Heizung+ I was also in doubts, but this is actually the BadHeizung in the D&W manual... (ugh! J)

BAD+ is the extra heating of the Warm Water boiler done via Electrical heater or so:

**** Elektroheizstab
Für den Brauchwasserspeicher steht ein Elektroheizstab mit integriertem Sicherheitstemperaturbegrenzer zur Verfügung. Der Elektroheizstab wird manuell über die Funktion BAD+ aktiviert, wenn der Wasserverbrauch sehr hoch ist. Bei einem Ausfall der Wärmepumpe wird der Elektroheizstab automatisch
aktiv, damit die Warmwasserbereitung weiterhin zur Verfügung steht.
Zusätzliche Funktion:
• Zyklisches Aufheizen des Brauchwassers auf 60°C (168h)****, I would say: "Anti-Legionellen-Zyklus"

[Stieger]

Yes, I can confirm now, that BAD+ is only for the boiler to heat up to 60°C again, because maybe the warm water was totally consumed in a certain scenario. The Heizung+ is the one which can use the warm boiler water to push the room heating.

So yes, the question is now how that could be implemented. I think we should go for a 2-step development.
1st step: we should try to implement a logic to manually switch this mode on, which is switching all IRC's excluding the ones from the bathrooms to OFF.
2nd step: than we can go for a logic which switches this function automatically.

idea for the 1st step I agree is in contrast to Loxones recommendation: how about using the STATUS element with the input of the IRC's HC and a second input for the Heizung+?
For Bathrooms:
IF Heizung+ is ON, OUTPUT is 10.
IF Heizung+ is OFF, OUTPUT is equal to HC input.
For all other Rooms: IF Heizung+ is ON, OUTPUT is 0.

What do you think, would that work?

Maybe we could also implement a separate sheet in the programming to place a lot of "Raumregelung" for every room.
With the "Raumregelung" we could set a low temperature for the rooms we do not want to be active and the bathrooms to 24°C or so.
Once the Heizung+ is over after 60mins, it could deactivate all "Raumregelung" with the input St.
This could be the alternative way, what do you think?

[Pippo74]

First of all, did you already thought about if to manage the Heizung+ Mode only in spring / autumn or even in Winter (summer don't believe it will be necessary). In other words, should we manage the Heizung+ function when FBH is in operation seasons?

Coming back to your proposal, In my opinion I'd go for the first solution, with Status blocks or so. Having all those extra Raumregelung... how that work with the current IRCs we now have for ea. room? They'll work in parallel, excluding the IRCs ?

A general consideration for IRC logic, considering summer / winter seasons. Again, the WAF is really important here too, J. Last year I worked with Drexel und Weiss Touch Panel, 1 temperature for all !
All my IRCs at the moment are set in Mode Auto (IRC M -> Mode 0, means Auto mode) and I'm now working with a Tc, Comfort Temperature, going from 24°C to 25.5°C, avoiding to have too low temperature in the summer hottest days. Entering into winter time, I should now re-adjust/lower all the Tc to say a range of 18-22°C.

"Real Smart Home" means we should not take care of the single room temperatures unless we just want to adjust them a bit. So, I'm really thinking about a way to differentiate the Tc for hot summer (Cooling or passive Cooling) and for Winter (heating). Let's say this could be an example of a "Tc curve" from Jan to Dec: 19-20-20-21-22-23-24-24-23-22-21-20 ?!?

For sure we should also have in mind:
- Outside Temperature
- House insulation level
- Heating system (Radiators, high-inertia radiant floor, low-inertia radiant floor)

[Stieger]

When to use Heizung+: I don't know yet if it's needed to use in winter time. The point is, that the Klima Controller switches off, once these 30% of the rooms are warm enough. So the rest is the bathrooms which maybe fall exactly below these 30% will not be warm enough.
-> But maybe that needs to be solved differently. I'm thinking about to set different percentages per cooling and heating season. Heating season: maybe a lower pecentage to also reach the temperatures in the bathrooms. If that works, I believe we should use it in the spring and autumn season.

[Pippo74]

It maybe a solution, but I believe the Klima controller should already take in consideration (when calculating the %) how many are the IRCs working in heating&cooling and how many just working in heating.
Coming back to my thoughts about the Room Comfort Temperature (let's say 24 in summer and 20 in winter) do you believ you'll be going to manually adjust it room per room when the season is changing ?!?
Do you also know if you can set the vorlauf temperature of your X2A9 heat pump below 35 C? With the X2S3 I've a limit at 35...

[Stieger]

Coming back to my thoughts about the Room Comfort Temperature (let's say 24 in summer and 20 in winter) do you believ you'll be going to manually adjust it room per room when the season is changing ?!?

For me, there's no need to change the room comfort temperatures according to the season. If you want to have that, I would realize it with a "Schaltuhr" and status block, which delivers the temperature input for the IRC comfort temperature.

Do you also know if you can set the vorlauf temperature of your X2A9 heat pump below 35 C? With the X2S3 I've a limit at 35...

I have too less knowledge to play around these parameters yet, but I've seen there is a limit in the modbus parameters at 34°C.

[Pippo74]

For me, there's no need to change the room comfort temperatures according to the season. If you want to have that, I would realize it with a "Schaltuhr" and status block, which delivers the temperature input for the IRC comfort temperature.

I'm wondering how to switch from summer (cooling) temperatures to winter (heating) temperatures, which maybe really different. Are you considering to manually change the Comfort Temperatures room by room according to the seasons ?!?

I looked into Klima Controller v.1 e there were 2 different Comfort Temperatures: Tch, Tcc. So one for heating, the other for cooling. Why into this new Klima controller V2 they only have a Tc for all situations ?

I have too less knowledge to play around these parameters yet, but I've seen there is a limit in the modbus parameters at 34°C.

yep, this limit is theoretically set to 34, but if you try to set to 34 it does not work, first value it takes is 35°C. Which can maybe too high for direct FBH, without a dedicated puffer, like my case. If you want to modulate the radiant floor temperatures at the beginning / end of the winter, you should be able to go until 27...28°C, which is not possible.
I can understand for the X2S3 the problems is most likely due to the on/off compressor, while in your case with the X2A9 there should be an variable compressor driven with an inverter.

[Hüslebauer0815]

Hello Guys,

does anyone of you uses the outside temperature from the wheater service instead of the measured temperature of the sensor outside. My sensor outside has a shity position and is sometimes in the direct sun. So i get no good results out of this sensor.

Sending the temperature to the D&W is not the problem, but the D&W is stopping and a failure occurs when I disconnect the sensor from the main board.

Any idea to fix this?

Thanks & regards Thomas

[Pippo74]

Hello,

do you mean the Aussenluft temperature sensor ? I've it in the duct before entering in the technical room, so no problems. I believe D&W check if the sensor is present, so they need to have it always connected I guess. As far as I know they use NTCs, but not sure which NTC type they use. I can double check and u can connect a resistor instead, corresponding to a 20°C temperature.

But then calculation won't be affected ?!? Which D&W Address do u use to send the Weather Forecast temperature variable ?

[Hüslebauer0815]

Hi,

yes the Aussenluft temperature sensor that normaly should be on a north wall. but in my case it is on the west wall and a change would not be so easy to implement.
Yes, D&W have implemented a check thats why the failure occurs. And i think the check can not be disabled by me.

The sensor is a
T_AT .......................Temperaturfühler Außenluft (2x0,5²) NTC Carel

The adress i use is WP 286 (every 5 seconds sending).

Do somebody think the sending rate may be to low. Or does anyone knows the sampling rate for this?

A simple resistor is no option. I would need a resistor that is changeable by loxone. But i think a such solution would be not very smart.

Thanks & regards Thomas

[Pippo74]

Ok,

but if you now use WP 286 (every 5s. I believe is already a very good time, no need to keep it 1s...) to send Weather forecast temperature does the X2S3 works fine? By the way I cannot fing WP 286 in the Parameter list I've for D&W software version 4.12.

A physical resistor which simulate an NTC (Carel is the manufacturer, but it's not enought, we still miss the NTC curve type to know the resistance at 20°C it maybe 10k, it maybe 5k...) is only a drawback to by-pass the D&W error.

[Haasal]

Hallo zusammen,
wie steuert ihr eure Fussbodenheizung der D&W? Habt ihr Loxone Stellantriebe oder andere? Habt ihr alle Ventile gesteuert oder immer nur einen Teil der Ventile in den verschiedenen Kreisen? Ich habe zB 4 Kreise im Wohnzimmer und mein Installateur meinte, dass er daraus nur 1-2 über Stellmotoren ansteuern würde, die anderen immer "fest" an der Wärmepumpe montiert.

LG
Alex

[Wurglitsalex]

Hey, ich habe jetzt alles nachgerüstet zwecks Stellantriebe und Temp Sensoren in den Zimmern! ich habe nicht die Loxone Stellantriebe eingebaut weil andere tuns genau so und sind wesentlich Billiger bei der Stückzahl die mann braucht!
Wohnzimmer und Gang sind z.b. 8 Kreise die alle dann Gleichzeitig ein oder ausgeschalten werden! einer der Immer offen bleibt ist das Badezimmer.

von 4 kreisen nur 2 zu schalten ist schwachsinn meiner meinung nach... dann ist der boden einmal warm 3 meter weiter wieder kalt ^^

LG Alex

[Stieger]

Hallo Haasal

Also ich habe alle Ventile über Loxone Stellantriebe, auch wenn ich z.B. 6 Kreise für das Wohnzimmer habe. In Loxone ist das dann alles an der Raumregelung vom Wohnzimmer zusammengehängt.
Ich rate davon ab einen Mix zu machen, denn dann stimmen sonst die Durchflussmengen nicht mehr. Vorallem wird dann z.B. nur einer der 4 Kreise erwärmt und die andern nicht, weil sie vielleicht auf Standard Durchfluss und der Loxone Stellantrieb mit Voll Durchfluss laufen. -> Dies würde dann warme und kalte Zonen im gleichen Raum geben.

LG Jsmael

[Haasal]

Hallo zusammen,

danke für die super Anleitung (vorallem an dich Jsmael!). Ich habe nun auch alles eingerichtet und dachte es funktioniert auch gut (WP lief an und hat alle Räume gut geheizt). Es klappt aber leider doch nicht so ganz. Anbei die Programmierung der WP - diese sollte laut Loxone auch heizen und auch die Stellantriebe sind offen.In der Visualisierung gibt der Klima Kontroller Heiz-Bosst aus, die Vorlauf Niedertemp sind 19,2 Grad, Sole 17,8° und es ist keine Pumpenstörung vorhanden. Die Wärmepumpe selbst ist jedoch aus?! Ich kann es mir leider nicht erklären, die Außentemperatur ist -1,9°. Gibt es noch irgendwelche Einstellungen die ich vielleicht übersehen habe bzw. einstellen muss? Am Touchpanel habe ich Einzelraumregelung auf Psio gestellt.

[Stieger]

kannst du ein hochauflösenderes Bild hochladen?

Es ist zu vermerken, dass mit der WP Extern Anforderung die Logik in der WP selbst nicht berührt wird. Sprich die WP funktioniert ganz normal in ihrer Logik mit Delta zwischen Innen und Aussentemperatur etc. <- hab ich noch nicht durchblickt
Das kann dazu führen, dass die WP selbst dann manchmal trotzdem ausschaltet, auch wenn der WP extern Heizen Befehl geschickt wird. Im Normalfall fängt die WP dann aber nach ner Weile trotzdem wieder an.
Auch ist mir aufgefallen, dass sobald ein SW Update auf die Heizung gespielt wurde, ich den Miniserver und somit den WP Extern Befehl nochmals frisch schicken musste, damit die WP merkte, dass es ein Signal am Eingang hat.

[Haasal]

Ich habe jetzt noch ein zweites Foto vom Teil des Controllers hochgeladen (mehr krieg ich durch den relativ schlechten Laptop - Bildschirm nicht hin ).

Hast du einen manuellen Schalter eingebaut um die Befehle aufzufrischen? Problem ist nur, dass meine WP die letzten Tage nicht wieder eingegangen ist - sie hat voll aufgeheizt und ist dann relativ lange ausgeblieben (in der Früh hatten wir gestern zB nur 19 Grad im Haus).

Gibt es denn bei den Einstellungen der WP noch etwas Weiteres zu beachten?

[Stieger]

Nach mir gibt es nichts Weiteres zu beachten, sehe aber bei deiner Schaltung, dass sie auch nicht ganz gleich gemacht ist. Bei dir geht der Befehlt ohne Verzögerung auf Heizen. Dies habe ich über die Einschaltverzögerung und das AND für Heizen und Kühlen angewandt. -> Die WP kann sowieso nicht schneller als in 10min umschalten.
Das Einzige was ich noch eingebaut habe ist ein zeitabhängiger 1 Sekunden Impuls der um 0:00 Uhr den Reset der Einschaltverzögerung macht, damit dann nach 5min der Befehl wieder erneut zur WP geht.

[Haasal]

Ah danke. Stimmt, ich hatte einen kleinen Fehler. Bin gespannt ob das nun geholfen hat! Vielen Dank. Prüfst du eigentlich den Status der WP selbst auch ab? Oder noch andere Parameter?

[Stieger]

Ja das mach ich, obwohl ich ehrlich gesagt fast nie drauf schaue.