drexel und weiss Einbindung

[Pippo74]

Yes, about 5130 I understand.

I'll now go this way playing with the service water set-point temperature according to the suggestions, anyway don't like so much to "give stress the compressor" when producing water to 55°C.
I've seen this 10K in the touch.panel, but did not touched it for the moment.

It maybe I'll also consider to work driving the EHZ with the PV-Excess, via a Tyristor unit like Chiemtronic. But also in this case I'm quite scared about the limescale, since I've here about 18...20 °FH, (11-12 °DH). So, let's go with another toy, a water softener like Grunbeck... :-(

[Balaise]

I think the 5130 is the limit water temp allowed to be pushed on the low temp heating loop after a service water heating cycle.

The water service heating is started when the T_BW_WP goes 10k under the target temp and is stopped when the T_BW_EHZ reach the target temp. The 10k is adjustable but only from the TouchPanel I think.
With the 20°C target temp unless you want to start the heating, the 10k doesn't matter too much.

I'm not sure the 5624 is relevant if you drive the heat pump with WP1414. And I don't think the service water temp is linked with the internal PV or low tariff logic.

[Pippo74]

WP1036, interesting one: will add to my WP status (now was just considering WP1414 :-)

WP4000...4006: never used them (-but interesting to look at-) because I've installed a Modbus meter to read the X2S3 consumption...

Do u understand the meaning for WP 5130 ?

I'm trying to find the condition which set the WP to start producing service water. (under a certain temperature !??!)

- Asked for Modbus speed because I already have one and desired to use it instead of buying another extension... J

About the PV, since I do not have dedicated inputs on the WP card, and since I don't like to install the SG-ready box... (another box on the wall :-) ), I'm wondering if with WP 5624, I can really command the P status or just define an internal logic.

I mean, to activate the temperature-increase of the service water, should I set WP 5624 AND have the Digital Input coming from the Energy Manager Relay of the PV inverter, or it's just sufficient to set WP 5624 = 1 ?

[Balaise]

I see the service water production with WP 1036 and the power used with WP4004.
Yes I have a X2A9, so it must explain some of the differences.

I’ve seen somewhere that the RS-485 will be soon available, it must be one of your post. The Swiss distributor has confirmed that it was available on the X2A9 but without much more details. Yes it’s the Loxone rs485 extension. I didn’t really understood the difference between the modbus one, but the latter seemed more for counter. Maybe just some standards settings or profile. I tried the rs485 and it worked, maybe the modbus one also works.
I have 115200, 8 data bits, 1 stop bit and no parity. Probably the default values has it has worked at first try.

For the level 2 heating it could also be for the air heat pump, with -10C air an alternative is often needed and the DLE might be used but never needed, so never tried.

[Pippo74]

Hi,
aktuell habe ich die Schwelle auf 57°C gestellt (habe 47°C Brauchwassertemperatur in der x2 als Standard lt. Anleitung), also 10 K Differenz. Hatte gleich zu Beginn 65°C und da gabs Brösel mit der besseren Hälfte.
Das "Feature" konnte ich mangels Sonne noch nicht wirklich testen. Micha: Durch die niedrige Sollwert-Vorgabe kannst du das Feature derzeit zu 100% ausschalten, d.h. diese Logik funktioniert immer?
Ich habe mir die ModbusParameter jetzt auch mal kurz angesehen und lasse mir mal die ganzen Anforderungen (BWH Elektro, BWH WP, NT-HK,...) ausgeben, vielleicht lerne ich ja die Logik der x2. Wahrscheinlich werde ich dann aber auch im Raumbediengerät die 5126 (EHZ vorhanden) einschalten müssen... ich gehe jetzt mal davon aus, dass dieses einzuschalten trotz fehlender Verkabelung grundsätzlich kein Problem sein kann.
Vielleicht könnt ihr mir folgende Fragen beantworten, die mir beim Durchforsten der Liste aufgekommen sind:
- Was bedeutet EVU bzw. was ist mit EVU-Anlage gemeint?
- Es gibt eine "Störung Boilertemperatur" bzw. auch ein anderes Register "Überschreitung Boilertemp." sowie "Vorübergehende Boilerübertemperatur". Habt ihr da schon mal eine Fehlermeldung bekommen? Wisst ihr Genaueres, wann diese Register ihren Wert von 0 auf 1 wechseln?

Noch was: ich hab in den Betriebsparameters das Thema Smart Grid bei meiner x2 nicht gefunden? Muss ich hier irgendwo anders was auswählen, damit ich diesen Betriebsparameter im psiio Menü sehe und bearbeiten kann?

lg,
A

To fix the WAF in cas you have higher temperature of the service water you can install a 3-way mixing thermostatic valve, directly connected to the boiler. Please have a look at the attached schematic, item n.10.

[Pippo74]

I am on 4.13.02, so maybe I have more registers available.

- This is for sure. I've here the 4.12.50, but don't know in which way move this FW forward...

I took some times with the RS485 monitor and the touch panel to test all interesting settings and see if something pop up on the monitor. That's how I discovered the meaning of some of the undocumented register. I failed to get the right register for the DV-NT and DV-Boiler as they are activated at the same time as other signals. In the end it doesn't really matter. I was just curious to see how the Heating+ or BAD+ worked.

I don't have extra SG box but the hardware input are available on the electric board on the heat pump. And as I'm not using the heat pump to manage the heat demand, these inputs will not be interesting for me. I use WP 1414 to tell to the heat pump what I need.

- It maybe the SG-box have been created just as an upgrade in case of old LU and WP electronic cards.
- I'm also using WP1414. But I also do not have any information about when the Heatpump is producing service water...

And with the WP 200 I get the technical room temperature but just for display.
- Also same with me.

I'm also directly connected to the modbus connector at the fan electric board to an RS-485 extension, no RS232 board.

- Are u using a Loxone RS-485 Extension? Why not a Modbus extension ? Which parameters: I hope the standard 9600-n-8-1...
- I'm using a serial line via a little TTL-RS232 adaptor provided by D&W, at the time they told me was no possible to work with Modbus directly.

I use the WP 4008 to see the actual demand of power.

- It's ok, thanks! I also do not see this WP4008 in the document... But I forget to tell you I have an X2S3 device, maybe you've the X2A9 ? So you can modulate the power... since it's an inverter water-to-ai heat-pump.

The IRC only ask for 0.5°C more. I'm not sure if the IRC is clever or dumber than it seems. But I have low temperature floor heating and it is very slow to heat more than 0.5deg/day. It work really great on the long term. So maybe the IRC adapt to the time required to go 1 deg higher and adjust accordingly

- With my case I've quite high outdoor insulation and under-floor heating with low-inertia (to be more responsive), so it possibly do not have really sense to use the floor as "thermal battery"...

I have added a capture of a day that show the Loxone and heat pump working has wanted. More power and higher temp when the sun give more than 1.2kW, Service water getting hotter without service water heating cycle. In this case the upper temp get hot quicker than the lower temp. Probably the water flow is much less than with the service water heating cycle and doesn't mix the whole water. Sometimes the heating demand stay on longer than needed (~15 or 20min) and without actual room demand but sometimes with some valve actuator open (again, dumber or smarter? :-)

There is a setting to start the DLE below a temperature. I think it's the level II heating. Never tested.

- Level II heating I believe this is in case you have a second source for heating, like a pellett stove or so.

Regarding Heating+ and Bad+, I was interested to use them if it allow to heat the bathroom without starting the heat pump. But the use case for me doesn't seam really there in the end.

- I'm using (I've been using it last winter to be honest..) Heating+, which is also called Bad-Heizung. This is quite usefull in case you're in autumn/spring, you possible did not use the floor heating because the season is gone or not started yet, and you may need to just keep warm the bathroom(s) in the morning. In this case no particular magics: it's a simple circulation of the water from the technical puffer or via the heating-coil in the boiler, which is circulating in a separate pipe to the Bathroom devices (maybe some wall pipe-heaters or so).
Since I've not a dedicated extra pipe for BadHeizung, I'm using some of the floor-heating valves, closing the valves for all the other rooms when BadHeizung is active. They usually recommend to use it no more than 1-2h to do not reach too low temperature of the boiler service water.

- I also never used BAD+ until now.

Maybe with a 3 way mixing valve on the output of the boiler and a bigger water storage and higher temperature... So with a solar heat panel, but it's a complete other system in the end.

[Balaise]

I am on 4.13.02, so maybe I have more registers available.
I took some times with the RS485 monitor and the touch panel to test all interesting settings and see if something pop up on the monitor. That's how I discovered the meaning of some of the undocumented register. I failed to get the right register for the DV-NT and DV-Boiler as they are activated at the same time as other signals. In the end it doesn't really matter. I was just curious to see how the Heating+ or BAD+ worked.
I don't have extra SG box but the hardware input are available on the electric board on the heat pump. And as I'm not using the heat pump to manage the heat demand, these inputs will not be interesting for me. I use WP 1414 to tell to the heat pump what I need. And with the WP 200 I get the technical room temperature but just for display.
I'm also directly connected to the modbus connector at the fan electric board to an RS-485 extension, no RS232 board.



I use the WP 4008 to see the actual demand of power.

The IRC only ask for 0.5°C more. I'm not sure if the IRC is clever or dumber than it seems. But I have low temperature floor heating and it is very slow to heat more than 0.5deg/day. It work really great on the long term. So maybe the IRC adapt to the time required to go 1 deg higher and adjust accordingly

I have added a capture of a day that show the Loxone and heat pump working has wanted. More power and higher temp when the sun give more than 1.2kW, Service water getting hotter without service water heating cycle. In this case the upper temp get hot quicker than the lower temp. Probably the water flow is much less than with the service water heating cycle and doesn't mix the whole water. Sometimes the heating demand stay on longer than needed (~15 or 20min) and without actual room demand but sometimes with some valve actuator open (again, dumber or smarter? :-)



There is a setting to start the DLE below a temperature. I think it's the level II heating. Never tested.

Regarding Heating+ and Bad+, I was interested to use them if it allow to heat the bathroom without starting the heat pump. But the use case for me doesn't seam really there in the end.
Maybe with a 3 way mixing valve on the output of the boiler and a bigger water storage and higher temperature... So with a solar heat panel, but it's a complete other system in the end.

[Pippo74]

Here the D&W Modbus registers from FW 4.12

[Pippo74]

Very good!

- Do you also have the SG extra box (card) from Loxone ? With it you can "read" the 3 digital inputs described in my original post.
- In which way do you know if the heat-pump is delivering more than 4kW ?
. You're using the Input Eh of the Klima Controller to say you're working from 22pm to 6am. How many °C the Klima controller is then asking at ea. IRC room controller when Eh is active ?

I've now looked for registers WP5594 and WP5596, but actually cannot find them into documentation for FW 4.12 which I've on my X2-S3.

About the DLE resistor I believe this could be used by Drexel internal FW just for Legionella-cycle and not in case of Extra-PV energy, that's the reason why I'm looking to drive it externally via a continuous regulation (OhmPilot, MyPV AC-Elwa/Thor, etc.).

By the way, if u get -30% lower than low buy rate, WOW, no reasons at all to waste energy in resistors :-)

[Balaise]

Hi all,

Pippo74, nice summary of what is possible to optimize the PV energy!

I have three things to add:
- I recently started to modify the WP 5594 (Temperature for the max HeatPump power) with the WP 5596 (Loop start température) to get more power and heat when the sun give enough energy. Previously I modified only the 5596 but without much effect.
- I also recently discovered that when the heat pump give more than 4000W, the service water get also quite a lot of heat simultaneously via the proportional valve from the high temperature loop. This way, during the daily PV production (witch is not long in winter) more electricity is used to store more thermal energy in the service water and in the screed. In this case, I use the trick with the Service water target to 20°C as long as I don't really need to rapidly heat the water. The service water target is only set to 55°C when there is no heating higher than 4000W and the water temperature is below 40°C.
- I have low electricity rate between 22h and 6h. So when the heating during the daily PV production is not enough, I also give the signal to the HVAC controller via Eh that energy rate is low but without tweaking the WP 5594 and 5596. It was not fully automatic but now I try to enable night heating when the average temperature of the last 48h get lower than my threshold.

Regarding the direct electric heater, I get a quite good resell rate for the PV electricity (~30% lower than my low buy rate), so I don't think it will be great for the service water in my case. Maybe to get to a higher temperature but with 800L I have already a nice storage at 55°C. And I can let it go low as I don't store drink water, it's directly heated via heat exchanger when needed (Combispeicher 800L 195.0600 D&W).
Maybe a middle way is to force the heat pump to use the DLE resistance but I'have not tried that and the temperature might be limited.

I only have 14 month of experience with the new house, heat pump and Loxone but I'm really happy with the first year's result.

[Pippo74]

Dears,

I also have Loxone & DHW X2S3 compact device, I read what above here and like to share some considerations about Heatpump and PV excess handling,

***********************************

No Loxone:

You would need to buy SG-box from DHW, which has 3 Digital inputs:

1. EVU-Sperre: Freigabe bzw. Sperre der Wärmepumpe durch den Energieversorger
2. PV Eigenverbrauch: Ermöglicht Erhöhgund des Eigenverbrauchs der Photovoltaikanlage durch temporäre Anhebung
der Solltemperaturen
3. Smart Meter (Niedertarif): Ermöglicht die Abnahme verbilligter Elektrizität durch temporäre Anhebung der
Solltemperaturen

The behaviour, in case PV or nieder tarif are active is this:
Betriebsparameter einstellen Die Auswirkungen auf die Raumheizung und die Warmwasserbereitung kann unter dem Parameter
„Modus Smart Grid“ folgendermaßen konfiguriert werden:
kein -> Modus ausgeschaltet
PV->bei Freigabe durch den Wechselrichter der PV-Anlage wird der Raumsollwert
angehoben
Niedertraif (NT) -> bei Freigabe durch den Energieversorger wird der Raumsollwert angehoben
PV oder NT -> bei Freigabe durch den Wechselrichter der PV-Anlage oder den Energieversorger
wird der Raumsoll wert angehoben
Temperturerhöhung Smart Grid:
Verschiebung der Raumsolltemperatur zwischen 0,5 und 3 K
Temperaturerhöhung Brauchwasser:
Erhöhung auf 55 °C (nicht einstellbar)

Comments:

Your X2 Heatpump will be used in winter in a quite good way, even if it just brings service water to 55°C, which is far to be used say for Legionella cycle too or to use your boiler as a real memory.

Deluxe : Very interesting your idea to do this logic:
Service water target (Modbus 5064) = 20°C, IF Actual Temp is > 45°C
Service water target (Modbus 5064) = 45°C, IF Actual Temp is < 45°C
Service water target (Modbus 5064) = 55°C IF the PV feed-in is quite high

***********************************

LOXONE present, in this case what above can completely be forgotten.

If you have enought PV in Excess, you can also do what follows together:

- Use the electric heater/rod or ON/OFF or via Tyristor controller (Chiemtronic Thyristorsteller), or even the more sofisticated MyPV AC-ELWA or THOR, ASKOMA ASKOHEAT+, or even - if u have Fronius WR, with the Ohmpilot (which has 3 different channels) for instance. In this case u can work up to 65 °C for the legionella o further increase the service water target temp. to 80°C

- Increase the Room temperature by the temp. u desire, changing Set Point temperature to all your IRCs in Loxone directly. This will start your X2 heat-pump adding further more comfort, via the house-mass storage OR Activate the Bad-Heizung function of the X2Sx or X2A9 to use water of the boiler to just increase bathrooms temperature.

If actual temp is < 45°C, I write setpoint 45°C. If I exceed a certain power grid feed-in threshold then I overwrite the target value with 55°C and the WP switches on relatively quickly within about 10min and.

- Some other IR or heaters based on resistors in the bathrooms. Then Dishwashing machine or washing machine can start too.


Hope to get some feedback/ideas, thanks!

[pinzo]

Hallo,
Software Updates macht nur der Drexel & Weiß Kundendienst im Zuge der Wartung. LG

[ladedruck]

Der WP 1414 Befehl ist genau was ich brauche. Ich habe aber eine zu alte FW (4.04). Wer hat bei Euch jeweils den Firmware Update durchgeführt? Hersteller? Partnerbetrieb? Ihr selbst?

Danke Euch!

[pinzo]

Hi,
und danke für deinen Input!

Richtig, der Ein- und Ausschaltpunkt würde jeweils in der Steuerung des Wechselrichters definiert werden. Die Freigabe käme durch die direkte Verdrahtung des 2-poligen Kabels in der Steuerung der Wärmepumpe an. Deine Zugangsweise ist auch meine bevorzugte. Die direkte Verbindung beider Systeme (WR und WP) wäre neben Loxone ein „autonomes System" im Haus. Das könnte man aber auch als Vorteil sehen. Der Nachteil ist der Verlust komplexerer Logiken zur Verbrauchsoptimierung. Wobei ja dennoch über Modbus RTU die Werte des WR ausgelesen werden können und mit den weiteren Aktoren der WP und den übrigen Einstellungsmöglichkeiten in Logiken genutzt werden können. Bei direkter Anbindung würde in meinem Fall immer das Brauchwasser bis max. 55°C durch die WP aufgeheizt werden und danach alle anderen Sollwerte raff setzen, wenn die PV den Strom liefert. Auch dann, wenn Loxone ausfällt oder das System gewechselt wird oder was auch immer passieren mag. Man müsste das nicht dauernd im Auge behalten. Also eher die Kategorie „Convenience".

Aber unterm Strich werde ich den potentialfreien Kontakt der WP mit einem Loxone-gesteuerten Relais ein- und ausschalten.
LG P

[anemac]

Hi,
also wenn du die Daten eh auch in der Loxone trackst, dann würde ich nicht über den direkten Weg gehen. So wie ich dich verstehe kannst du nur einen definierten Ein- und Ausschaltpunkt setzen, ab wann der WR die Verbraucher freigibt. Warum willst du dich damit einschränken, wenn du eine ggf. bessere (komplexere) Logik in der Loxone realisieren kannst?
lg, A