drexel und weiss Einbindung

[Stieger]

When to use Heizung+: I don't know yet if it's needed to use in winter time. The point is, that the Klima Controller switches off, once these 30% of the rooms are warm enough. So the rest is the bathrooms which maybe fall exactly below these 30% will not be warm enough.
-> But maybe that needs to be solved differently. I'm thinking about to set different percentages per cooling and heating season. Heating season: maybe a lower pecentage to also reach the temperatures in the bathrooms. If that works, I believe we should use it in the spring and autumn season.

[Pippo74]

First of all, did you already thought about if to manage the Heizung+ Mode only in spring / autumn or even in Winter (summer don't believe it will be necessary). In other words, should we manage the Heizung+ function when FBH is in operation seasons?

Coming back to your proposal, In my opinion I'd go for the first solution, with Status blocks or so. Having all those extra Raumregelung... how that work with the current IRCs we now have for ea. room? They'll work in parallel, excluding the IRCs ?

A general consideration for IRC logic, considering summer / winter seasons. Again, the WAF is really important here too, J. Last year I worked with Drexel und Weiss Touch Panel, 1 temperature for all !
All my IRCs at the moment are set in Mode Auto (IRC M -> Mode 0, means Auto mode) and I'm now working with a Tc, Comfort Temperature, going from 24°C to 25.5°C, avoiding to have too low temperature in the summer hottest days. Entering into winter time, I should now re-adjust/lower all the Tc to say a range of 18-22°C.

"Real Smart Home" means we should not take care of the single room temperatures unless we just want to adjust them a bit. So, I'm really thinking about a way to differentiate the Tc for hot summer (Cooling or passive Cooling) and for Winter (heating). Let's say this could be an example of a "Tc curve" from Jan to Dec: 19-20-20-21-22-23-24-24-23-22-21-20 ?!?

For sure we should also have in mind:
- Outside Temperature
- House insulation level
- Heating system (Radiators, high-inertia radiant floor, low-inertia radiant floor)

[Stieger]

Yes, I can confirm now, that BAD+ is only for the boiler to heat up to 60°C again, because maybe the warm water was totally consumed in a certain scenario. The Heizung+ is the one which can use the warm boiler water to push the room heating.

So yes, the question is now how that could be implemented. I think we should go for a 2-step development.
1st step: we should try to implement a logic to manually switch this mode on, which is switching all IRC's excluding the ones from the bathrooms to OFF.
2nd step: than we can go for a logic which switches this function automatically.

idea for the 1st step I agree is in contrast to Loxones recommendation: how about using the STATUS element with the input of the IRC's HC and a second input for the Heizung+?
For Bathrooms:
IF Heizung+ is ON, OUTPUT is 10.
IF Heizung+ is OFF, OUTPUT is equal to HC input.
For all other Rooms: IF Heizung+ is ON, OUTPUT is 0.

What do you think, would that work?

Maybe we could also implement a separate sheet in the programming to place a lot of "Raumregelung" for every room.
With the "Raumregelung" we could set a low temperature for the rooms we do not want to be active and the bathrooms to 24°C or so.
Once the Heizung+ is over after 60mins, it could deactivate all "Raumregelung" with the input St.
This could be the alternative way, what do you think?

[Pippo74]

I still have to think about how to implement that (September here in Turin is still delivering hot nice days. J)...

hmmm, an idea could be to use the time in between Cooling-Mode and Heating-Mode, which are going to define the behaviour of the HeatPump.
In this intermediate "dead time", would say Sept.15 to Dec.1st, you are not cooling, not heating, HeatPump is surely OFF.
You may add an AND block before the connection with ea. Output command to the Valve (1st input is the IRC's HC1 or HC output, 2nd input is the BadHeizung Mode Active).
This goes in light contrast with Loxone directives (pls. don't put intermediate functions a/o elements betw. the IRC and the Output command) but you can be sure to have all the Valves OFF when BadHeizung is ACTIVE.
In this case you use BadHeizung Active also to Open the Bathrooms valves to 100%, to ramp-up the heating in a max. time of 60 minutes... first shot in the morning, second in the evening.

What do you guys think about ?

--------------

Regarding Heizung+ I was also in doubts, but this is actually the BadHeizung in the D&W manual... (ugh! J)

BAD+ is the extra heating of the Warm Water boiler done via Electrical heater or so:

**** Elektroheizstab
Für den Brauchwasserspeicher steht ein Elektroheizstab mit integriertem Sicherheitstemperaturbegrenzer zur Verfügung. Der Elektroheizstab wird manuell über die Funktion BAD+ aktiviert, wenn der Wasserverbrauch sehr hoch ist. Bei einem Ausfall der Wärmepumpe wird der Elektroheizstab automatisch
aktiv, damit die Warmwasserbereitung weiterhin zur Verfügung steht.
Zusätzliche Funktion:
• Zyklisches Aufheizen des Brauchwassers auf 60°C (168h)****, I would say: "Anti-Legionellen-Zyklus"

[Pippo74]

I agree, BadHeizung & Solar Panels are most likely the best situation, anyway:

1) "I do no heating with the electrical heater, because the pump uses the electrical power much more efficent" You are totally right, but in any case if you're going to still have PV in eccess (12am, you're out of home) it's more efficient to store the energy in the house, so in the puffer.

2) "But anyway, if you use the badheizfunktion and your use-water temperatur gets to low, the pump has to go on higher load (but shorter running time) to make again 55°C hot water, than it would need to just deliver warm water for the normal heating process."
This is why D&W normally defines the BadHeizung for the default time of 60minute, 2 times a day.
That's why I've installed a 400l boiler, just because I was afraid about the warm water & WAF... :-)

3) "Sunny but cold day." Normally bad Heizung function is used in early morning and before night, so out of PV production peak. Again, it's important to have the puffer "fully loaded" so that you've enought stored energy. Who cares if the puffer will reach 60...65°C? (see 1) )

[Stieger]

Ah okay, that sounds quite interesting but needs a bit of a logic in Loxone, as I have no extra pipes.
I was already wondering if there's another way to heat the bathroom, as the Klima Controller is only start heating when there are enough requests.

Have you already programmed it with the consideration of a timer and closing other actuators?
And is there anywhere a description of the other function "Heizung+"? I guess this is using the warmwater tank too.

[Pippo74]

Drexel Und Weiss:

Badheizung
Die Funktion „Badheizung“ ermöglicht einen Teillastbetrieb, um auch außerhalb der regulären
Heizzeiten Teile der Fußbodenheizung zu temperieren. Diese Funktion muss über einen externen Kontakt (zum Beispiel einen zeitgesteuerten Raumthermostat) aktiviert werden. Die für die
Beheizung erforderliche Wärme wird so lange dem Warmwasserspeicher entzogen, bis die Wärmepumpe zur Ladung des Warmwasserspeichers aktiviert wird. Nach erfolgter Ladung wird der
Teillastbetrieb fortgesetzt. Bei aktiver Funktion "Badheizung" werden alle nicht beheizten Zonen
über ein Motor-Kugelventil abgesperrt.

In practice you can use the puffer as a hot-water battery for your heating in the bathroom both FBH or towel rail in case. Drexel Und Weiss also recommend this function should not be used more than 1h. (I believe thay ask that to not remove too much energy from the puffer. In my case I installed a 400l puffer)
Be aware that in case you activate the BadHeizung function you must be sure all the other FBH actuators-valves are closed ! Also, be sure to have enough water flow for the bathroom FBH a/o towel rails, otherwise the circulation pump maybe go in troubles... That's why Drexel un Weiss recommend an extra valve/pipe just for bathroom FBH a/o towel rails.

Hope it's clear.

[Hüslebauer0815]

I agree if you have solar panels because then you get very high water temp.
I have a PV on the top. In the morning wenn the PV power reaches a defined level the heating of the water starts with the pump.
I do no heating with the electrical heater, because the pump uses the electrical power much more efficent.

If you want to use the badheizfunktion you just need to ensure that all other heating circles are closed (Via Loxone Stellantrieb for example).

But anyway, if you use the badheizfunktion and your use-water temperatur gets to low, the pump has to go on higher load (but shorter running time) to make again 55°C hot water, than it would need to just deliver warm water for the normal heating process.

An other example: Sunny but cold day. Only bath needs heating because it has a higher required room temperature. You use bad heating function. At the evening the use-water reaches the reheating temperatur, but the sun is going set, so you have to buy the energy. If you are bad luck your wife takes a bath, the kid take a shower ... then the pump runes in the night to even reach the min level of use water temperature.

One advantage of this could be, that you can heat very litte baths or guest toilete rooms, where the pump would deliver too much heating energy.

[Stieger]

To use this "Badheizung", is it needed that pipes are going extra or how's that installed?
Is there an extra heating output to connect with the towels heater?

[Pippo74]

Hello,

badheizung function I believe it's good in intermediate seasons like october/november if the sun is still good, in all cases where you may have "free energy to store in the boiler/puffer":

- Solar panels and then an additional heat-exchanger in the puffer or sanitary puffer.
- PV on the roof, in this case the extra power will be used to heat the puffer via a standard immersion resistor.

In my case I'm going to use this badheizung for: Under-Floor-Heating + towels rails heating in the bathrooms.

PLEASE NOTE:
1- In badheizung mode you must turn-off all the valve Actuators for the other Under-Floor-Heating around the house. You can use or an Extra/pipe and an Extra/Valve (commanded by a dedicate output from the D&W X2xx, or simply an output from the Under-Floor-Heating main manifold. (I did the second option)
2- In badheizung mode you should have a minimum circulation for the pump.
3- D&W suggests max. 2h for BadHeizung in a day.

[Hüslebauer0815]

Hallo,

habs umgesetzt. Funktioniert soweit nicht schlecht. Die Badheizfunktion lasse ich nie anwählen bzw. schaltet die WP dann auf Heizen. Macht für mich keinen Sinn das Bad mit Brauchwasser zu heizen.

Die Pumpe muss dann ja immer wieder auf 55 Grad heizen anstatt den einen Raum mit Warmwasser zu versorgen.

Gruss Thomas

[Stieger]

Das ist so wie ich das sehe überflüssig. Bei mir übernimmt Loxone die Entscheidung. Die WP ist zwar Standardeingestellt nach Werk, dies ist aber nicht mehr relevant.

[Hüslebauer0815]

Hoi Stieger,

werde dieses Wochenende mal starten mit deiner Programmierung. Schreibt ihr die sonstigen Parameter trotzdem noch? z.B. Heizgrenztemperatur (16°C) --> also unter welcher Aussentemperatur die Heizung freigegeben wird? Für die Kühlung das selbe und noch mehr...Eig. müsste der WP das dann egal sein oder? Entscheidet dann ja Loxone intern, wahrscheinlich anhand ähnlicher Kriterien, wann geheizt oder gekühlt werden soll.

Danke und Gruss Thomas

[Stieger]

Eigentlich dürfte diese Externe Anforderung nur für die Raumheizung/Kühlung gelten. So hat es mir der Support erklärt. Aber die WP hat manchmal gewisse Zeiten bis sie wieder anfährt und nachregelt. Ich würde abwarten.

[v2-81]

Hallo Stieger,
ich werd das mit den Klappen mal testen.

Gerade ist mir noch etwas aufgefallen. Aktuell ist die WP durch die Loxone deaktiviert. Meine vorgegebene Brauchwassertempetatur wurde aber deutlich unterschritten . Eigentlich müsste doch nun die WP trotzdem arbeiten. Oder haben wir diese jetzt pauschal ausgeschaltet?